Friday, October 24, 2008

The future of this country

This is a long article, but for those who are unsure about this election and who they are going to vote for, this article is a must read. Believers in Jesus who are on the fence over this election really need to read this article. It is scary, but I can honestly see this happening. This letter was from, which is a Focus On The Family website.


SchnauzerMom said...

Whew that is scary! We should pray, pray, pray. Hopefully what they are saying won't happen.

April said...

Hi Jen, I read the link you provided and just want to assure you that if you think those things are going to happen if Obama gets elected, you are worrying about nothing. If he does become our next president, I can promise you that he will not be the liberal demon you are so afraid of. And he will never say he has a "mandate" (like Bush did), and will probably be very much in the "middle" - even leaning a bit to the right. From everything I have read and heard, the fears you have are unfounded. The scenarios are over-the-top ridiculous and as a liberal *I* wouldn't even support them.

It seems to me that there is a group out there who thrives on using fear to get people to think and do certain things. Fear based on things that aren't true. It's always "us" against "them", the "patriotic" against the "unpatriotic", the "real" against the "unreal" Americans, and on and on. It's so divisive and negative and will always keep us divided.

I could try to explain to you why many Christians are voting for Obama (and their main issue is NOT taxes) but I won't. Christians are different just like everyone else in the world and some see certain things as being very important - and they simply see Obama as possessing what it takes to accomplish those things. If you don't know what those things are, maybe you could talk to a Christian who is voting for Obama. It might help.

I'm sorry you are afraid and worried. I have been afraid and worried for eight years under Bush and Cheney. It's not a good feeling; I know.

Jen said...

April, I wouldn't be as concerned if some of these things weren't already happening, but they are. Many of these things mentioned in this letter are already happening in some states. I will give you some examples of things that are happening already, that are listed in that letter.

*In May of this year, the California Supreme Court overturned a ban on gay marriage, even though the people had already voted in 2000 for the ban by a vote of 55% to 45%. The Supreme Court of California overturned what the people had voted for, and went against the people.

*On March 10, 2006 Catholic Charities in Boston announced that it would stop all of its adoption-placement work. The reason? They don't want to be in the gay-adoption business, but the government tells them they must be. In refusing to adopt to gay couples, it was looked upon by the courts as discrimination (even though homosexuality is against what the Catholic church teaches). Because it was viewed as discrimination, they were going to lose their tax exempt status, so they decided to stop doing adoptions instead of fight the gay agenda. Mitt Romney, the governor of Massachusetts said, "Here's a case in Massachusetts of the state interfering with the free practice of religion" It is not just about Catholic Charities in Boston. Matthew Spalding, director of the B. Kenneth Simon Center for American Studies at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, D.C. warns: "If religious institutions are forced by the new regime of laws to withdraw from the adoption business in order to preserve and protect their liberty and religious faith, what about marriage itself? What about the tax-exempt status, or free-speech protections, of religious institutions that advance teachings contrary to the new regime? I think we have entered a new phase of the battle, in which the larger implications of the heretofore abstract debate about marriage are becoming disturbingly clear."

*In San Diego, California, Dr. Christine Brody and Dr. Douglas Fenton, two deeply religious Christian doctors who own a Christian fertility clinic, and who are opposed to gay marriage and same sex parenting were approached by a lesbian couple to inseminate one of them. They advised the prospective gay couple to find another health care provider to provide that service(which they could have easily found in California). The couple refused to go to someone else, and took the case to court. Justice Joyce Kennard ruled that the two doctors could not claim a free speech or religious exemption from California’s anti-discrimination law, and that they were required to inseminate lesbians by law, even though it goes against what they morally believe.

* In January of this year, a same-sex couple asked Elaine Huguenin, co-owner with her husband of Elane Photography, to photograph a "commitment ceremony" that the two women wanted to hold. Huguenin declined because her Christian beliefs are in conflict with the message communicated by the ceremony. The same-sex couple filed a complaint with the New Mexico Human Rights Division, which is now trying Elane Photography under state antidiscrimination laws for sexual orientation discrimination.

* In March of this year, a state appeals court in California ruled that homeschooling was illegal in California unless the parent had teaching credentials. This sent shock waves across the state, leaving an estimated 166,000 children as possible truants and their parents at risk of prosecution. Thankfully the case was fought, and was overturned, but this is the first of it's kind. As a homeschool mom, it was very unsettling.

*In 2005, In Lexington, MA, a parent, David Parker, was arrested by the Lexington police and charged with "trespassing" at his son’s elementary school during a scheduled meeting with the principal and the town’s Director of Education over his objections to homosexual curriculum materials. Parker had asked for notification and possible opt-out for his son for homosexual curriculum. After being arrested and spending the night in jail, Parker was released on $1,000 surety bond. He was officially informed that he may not set foot on any school property in Lexington, or he will be arrested again for trespassing. On October 2008, after mounting a ferocious battle to preserve traditional marriage values, David Parker could only watch helplessly as the United States Supreme Court left intact a lower court ruling that allowed Massachusetts schools to promote homosexuality in the classroom without telling parents or allowing them to opt out.

*In Philadelphia, eleven Christian protesters ranging from age 17-72were arrested on October 10, 2004, when they peacefully protested at a homosexual 'block party', using nothing but bullhorns and Bibles, and singing Christian hymns. Nicknamed the Philadelphia 11, the group has been charged with a hate crime, and could spend up to 47 years in prison.

I could give you more examples, but I will stop for now. This is real stuff that is happening in America. You may not believe it, but it is. If you go to, you can hear first hand stories of people who have had these things happen. That letter may be futuristic, but many things in it are already happening.

dsurrell2 said...

Hi Jen,
I think your fears are very valid and many Americans have those very same fears. Obama is crafty and his main tactic is to be such a smooth talker that nobody sees through what he is really out to accomplish. I believe he will be WORSE than the liberal demon you are afraid of. He is by far the most radical liberal ever in the senate and many Democrats will not deny this. I think that many of Obama's supporters are so blinded by his smooth talking and his promises, and want so badly for the Republicans to be out of office that they just can't bring themselves to even entertain the possibility that he would ever do some of the radical things that he himself has outright said that he will try to do. Had I known that Obama would be so radical and so popular, and such a threat to our American way of life, that I would have registered as a Democrat and voted for Hilary just to ensure that he didn't have a chance. Hindsight is 20-20.

I am very sad for America if he gets into office. Yes, our way of life will be RADICALLY altered in the name of "change". I think that if he gets into office, his supporters will be in for a rude awakening and not even realize what they created by voting him into office. And by then it will be too late.

April said...

Hi Jen, I wanted to respond to your response earlier, but just haven’t had the time. Mainly, I wanted to say that I agree with you that Christians (or people of other religions) shouldn’t, for example, have to marry gay people or perform abortions or other things that go against their religion. That isn’t right. They should be able to opt out and not have to deal with any sort of legal action.

On the other hand, it’s not fair for Christians to make people live by their beliefs and rules if one isn’t a Christian.

In wondering why people make the choices they do, I like to read all sides of the issues because I am so interested in what people think - and how they come to conclusions. I think I know your side of it, but below are links to other Christian’s opinions. Maybe they will help you at least understand why they can vote for someone you can’t – even though you don’t agree with them. You seem to be struggling to understand, so maybe it will help.

I think that a lot of people, Christians included, might agree that certain things pointed out in the “2012 letter” are important, but see other issues as being more critical at this time in our country's history. To them worrying about gay marriage isn’t nearly as important as terrorism against the country, for example.

And, to the poster above: We have lived with George Bush and Cheney for eight years and they "radically" changed this country for the worse in many ways. I wonder how many people who voted for them regret it. I think quite a few, as Republicans are leaving the Republican party in droves, embarrassed by what it has become.

dsurrell2 said...

In case you haven't noticed, Bush and Cheney aren't going to be in office any longer. This is a whole new ballgame. I for one have no regrets that I voted them both into office. They were hit with 911 right after they got in, and two years later had to succomb to a democratic congress. I blame THEM for most of our economic problems.

This election has gone beyond the old standby rhetoric that everybody makes every election, whether conservative or liberal. The integrity of our constitution, many of our freedoms and our American way of life is dangerously at stake here. I could live with a 4 or even 8 year term of most any Democrat mucking with our country at this point. But if Obama gets elected, some very serious permanent damage could very well happen in this country, and it is frightening.

Fox said...

I just want to add that just because there are people who say they are Christians, doesn't mean that they are what they say. It's actions that prove who you are. Actions don't make you who you are, but they do prove who you are. The Bible tells us that we will know them "by their fruit". So... if you say you are an apple tree, but you are producing lemons you are NOT an apple tree, you're a lemon tree!

For Bible believing Christians, and that is the only true Christians from what the Bible tells us, if you are a child of God you will obey His commandments, which include more than just the famous 10. People who say they are Christians and are choosing to vote for Obama, I believe are going against what God tells them to do in the Bible. Christians do not have the option to support things God does not support. They have freewill, yes, but if they support things God does not support then they are in sin and God will chasten them until they repent of their wrong ways.

An Obama presidency will enact laws that go against God, therefore, true Christians should not vote for him. While neither candidate may do all the things we would hope, you have to choose the one that will do the most things according to God's way and to choose the one who's administration will not prevent you from doing things God's way.

Someone's morals will govern our country... be it the atheist's, the socialist's, or the average "Christian's" morals... someone's morals will shape laws we live by. Christian morals have been doing that since our country began. Unfortunately, we see it unraveling, and as a result, our country is becoming a worse place.

While the Christian principles we want enacted in government, like no abortion (murder) and no gay marriage only cover a tiny spectrum of life, the changes that liberals like Obama want to make will cover many more issues in life. Not only will people be allowed to have abortions up through the 9th month of pregnancy, but they will take our tax dollars to fund it, forcing us to pay to support murder, something clearly against our religious convictions. They will shut down conservative talk radio. Christians will no longer be able to live out their faith without being persecuted by the government because we will be spreading "hate" by saying something is wrong and by not supporting it. This will shut down Christian Broadcasting that speaks of issues like abortion and homosexuality.

I don't feel bad for not wanting people to commit murder against the unborn anymore than I don't feel bad for not wanting them to commit murder on anyone else. I don't really care if they think it's ok to kill someone if you're mad at them for some reason... I think it's wrong and I am glad it's a law that murder is wrong. I don't feel bad for saying I oppose gay marriage as marriage is between a man and a woman and always has been. While a ban against abortion would stop a woman from killing her unborn child and freeing herself of an unwanted pregnancy, we already have laws against murder, so it's not a big step to include the unborn. There are people that are tried for murder today that have killed a baby that is still in the womb. The only difference is the mother wanted that baby, therefore it's "murder" under those conditions. It's crazy that we have these double standards.

But as to no gay marriage, that law would still not stop people from living a gay lifestyle. It just won't sanction their lifestyle. So there is a difference from the Christian side... we're not demanding everyone live out the Christian faith, but their view certainly does try to stop us from living out ours.

While Christians are concerned about current things going on, NOTHING is more critical to the Christian than following what God teaches. Nothing. If other things are more important to you, then 1- you might not actually be a Christian or 2- You are in disobedience to God's Word.

The links April gave, well.. the pro-Life, pro-Obama one sickens me. Obama will increase the number of abortions because he will make them easier to get. He will rescind all laws that limit abortion. He stands against parental consent of minors getting an abortion. He supports the most vile forms of late term abortion. He said himself said that if his daughters made a "mistake" then he wouldn't want them burdened with a baby. So he is very supportive of abortion rights for any reason... even simply not wanting the baby because it would be a "burden". Anyone who is truly PRO-Life, would not vote for Obama. If you are voting for Obama it's not because he is going to help stop abortions. He's already pledged to rescind the laws his first week in office... that's how much he supports it. So despite the fact that they have scripture on their website, I don't find them very "Christian" at all. I am sure they have their reasons for supporting Obama, but it isn't about limiting abortion as Obama will NOT do that. I would venture to guess that they just want to vote for Obama and they think this will help ease their consciences and help sway others to vote for him. I can't really know their minds... it's just a guess, but the website is most deceptive.

In Steve Lindsley's blog list is Brian McLaren, an Emerging Church leader who doesn't abide by the Bible but instead makes it whatever he wants it to mean. So I have to wonder about Steve's judgment to put such a man on his list of blogs. It certainly makes me leery of his views as well. However, I still don't know if Steve is for or against Obama, so it's moot point. Steve's point on speaking the truth in love is fine. His take that the letter is fear-mongering is wrong. It's a call to battle. It's not fear as in I'm afraid I'm going to go hide under a rock, but a fear of not standing up for what you believe in and what that means to our future. It's a rallying cry that says if you don't do the things God's told you to do... this is what could happen. If Obama is elected, I'm still confident the Lord will see us through. I am not afraid of Him not taking care of us. I am concerned for the direction our country will take as it is led down a more immoral path and the effect that will have on the next generation of children.

There are real, critical concerns Christians have that include all the ones that non-Christians have, but then some. But we must not vote as our race, we must not vote as our tax bracket, we must always vote Christian first... everything else comes second.

No time to proof this, so... :)

April said...

Well, I will leave some of this for the Christians to discuss, as I am an outsider. All I know is that there are Christians who are voting for Obama and that Christians interpret the Bible in different ways. Judging who is a "real" Christian and who is not isn't up to me to decide - and probably isn't up to other Christians to decide either.

We are not all Christians in this country and an Obama presidency is for all Americans not just Christians. Even so, he is a Christian (even if you don't approve of his style of Christianity) and I don't fear for Christian's "rights" and do not foresee the wave of persecution you predict. I see Obama as fair and inclusive.

I have seen some horrible things happen in this country that I haven't liked at all, but I've had to deal with it for the past eight years. I can empathize with you about the possibility of a candidate you don't like being elected because I've been there with Bush/Cheney.

And yes, dsurrel2, I do know that Bush and Cheney aren't going to be in office anymore, but the point was that I and at least half of the country have had deal with the the "radical" changes they made to the country - changes we feared and have seen come true.

At least I acknowledge some of the fears you guys have, which is more than anyone did for me and my fears four years ago. While I acknowledge them, I do think you are letting your fears distort your perception on the reality of such things happening to the degree you predict.

Praying is good. I'm doing the same.

Fox said...

This is just a comment for the blog really, not directed at anyone person, but I'd like to use something April posted as a talking point. :) See, I used a political term, talking point! LOL!

April wrote: "Judging who is a "real" Christian and who is not isn't up to me to decide - and probably isn't up to other Christians to decide either."

This is true to an extent. On our own we can't determine who is a real Christian and who isn't. But the Bible tells us what a Christian will be like. Now there are people who can "act" like a Christian and still not be one, as we can't truly see into the heart. But people that choose not to live like a Christian should on a consistent basis are most likely not Christians. If they are, then they are in a state of disobedience to God and not living as they should. The Bible tells you all kinds of ways to know who Christians are. 1 John talks about a group of people who were once a part of the church, believers, proclaiming Christians... and they are living in sinful ways, and John tells them they went out from them because they never were one of them. Galatians tells us that Christians will have the fruits of the Spirit being evidenced in their lives. If there is no fruit of a Christian life, then it's back to one of two things, you are either not a real Christian or you are a Christian living in a sinful state.

Now we aren't deciding what these things are, God does. We just state what He has told us in His Word. I think people often misunderstand that, and often think it's our own ideas or standards which are being expressed. We haven't decided this, God has. We can't decide on our own that people can have whatever version of Christianity that they want, even if it defies Scripture and still be a "Christian". In order to be a Christ-follower, which is what Christian means, you must accept Christ as your Savior and Lord, and actually follow the teachings of Christ out of love for Him. Anything else is a perversion of Christianity, not a version of it. This is not to say that people don't promote and claim a new type of Christianity, I just think it's a false religion, not real Christianity as it differs from the Bible teachings God has given us.

Ultimately God sees and knows the heart and gives the final judgment on all souls. But the Bible tells us that we should judge with righteous judgment, meaning we use His Word to judge the things of this world as to what is right and what is wrong. We don't get to have variations of Christianity and still be able to claim Him as Lord. I think there is a degree of understanding the Bible that might vary on some non-salvation essential points, but that is different than someone who clearly goes against Scriptural teachings.

Let me simply note that I am speaking as a Christian who believes the Bible is the infallible Word of God. All of my thoughts stem from my belief in God and His Word. If you don't believe the Bible is completely true, then you might not agree with the things I believe. And you have the right to believe it. But because of my belief in God's Word as being true, then you must believe the Bible in order to be a real Christian and you must live according to the ways God says we should live (not saying people might not make mistakes, but they will repent and be forgiven, turning away from that sin). We are also told to encourage one another and if someone is in sin to go to that person and speak to them about it in the hopes of turning them back to the Lord. There is no way to do this without examining each others lives in order to be accountable one to the other. So I think it's clear in Scripture that our lives reflect what we believe and who we are and should do that.

Based on his life choices and his consistent actions and stated beliefs, I don't believe Obama is a real or true Christian as He supports and stands for things that God doesn't. On the other hand, I am not convinced McCain is a Christian either. But McCain will better promote the values of Biblical Christians and Obama will purposely go against Christian values in many ways so I can't and won't support him, nor should other Christians in my personal opinion through the convictions of Scripture.

I hope that Obama will not do as many bad things as he could. I think our only hope of this is if his ego will override his desire to bring the types of change he has claimed he will, the types of changes he has worked for in his past (abortion on demand, tax dollars to support abortions, special rights for homosexuals, less rights for Christians as a result of these things, and redistribution of wealth from those he deems to have plenty to those he deems to have less) . If he wants to be viewed as a liked president, then he will stay more centered, which he's never done before. I have no hope of him leaning to the right in any way, as it's hard enough to get him close to center. But since he has broken many promises already, I guess maybe he will break some more, and if so, I hope he breaks the ones that I am against in the first place.

dsurrell2 said...

I don't see what radical changes Bush/Cheney made in this country, other than some necessary things they did to protect the citizens of this country. Not that I agree with all of them, but growing up having been a military dependent I know that there is a lot of national security things that civilians aren't privy to and we will never understand. That said, personally, I have personally been WAY better off these past 4 years than I was under Clinton. No comparison. And I see major economic disaster not just for me but for our country coming if Obama comes into office. It's already happening not only in the stock market but in businesses, just in anticipation of him becoming elected. If by the grace of G-d McCain gets elected, I'm sure a good amount of the economic problems will immediately improve.

As for the religious issue. Unless you elect a very fundamentalist religious person in any religion, you are not going to get anybody who is across-the-board perfect. The problem with the radical liberals is that they want to appease everybody who goes against society. If you study the Fall of the Roman Empire, you will learn that rome fell largely because of the moral breakdown in society. (That, and failure to protect its borders).

Jules said...

I've avoided the political discussions ever since I got burnt for playing with fire (what do I know about American politics?) but I have to comment on this: "... it’s not fair for Christians to make people live by their beliefs and rules if one isn’t a Christian."

Perhaps that's true, although Christian morals are for everyone and at one time most of society lived by these same Christian morals whether or not they were Christian (and we had less crime, less divorce, less child abuse, less STDs, etc).

BUT, on the other hand, Christians have to live by the morals imposed on them by non-Christians. As a Christian in a country that has a high abortion rate and same-sex marraiges (in fact many same-sex Americans couples are coming here because their relationships are being recognised under law), I'm tired of living under the morals imposed on me by those that believe differently. As Jen's examples showed, Christians are being discriminated against for upholding their beliefs. Sadly, anyone else can uphold their beliefs, whether gay or Islam or wahtever, and not be persecuted. Where's the fairness in that?